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i didn't say i didn't believe it was credible. I said it was full of atrocities and some decent poetry. It is one of the few histories we have from so long ago, and although flawed, is valuable.

I don't believe it is infallible, or that it is the pure word of god. It is the holy book of a nation, the Jews, and is one of the foundation books of our culture. I could no more ignore the bible than i could ignore Shakespeare or Jefferson.

But i don't have to believe that Jefferson or Shakespeare are divinely inspired to read them either.

That said, the bible is internally inconsistent. Why four gospels that disagree? Why the evolution of god? Why the addendum of Paul and St. John? Why Revelations, for crying out loud?

There is a lot of research and scholarly work on these an other questions, which i find amusing, and a great way to drive off literalists.

A copy of the Gospel of Thomas will drive off any number of Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and other fanatics who want me to worship their god.

I believe that Jesus was a great philosopher, whose words have been perverted more than any other's in all of history.

But I'm not going to do your research for you. Look up the Gospel of Q, and see for yourself. Or not. It means nothing to me, one way or the other.

These are not secrets, all serious students of the bible know them, it's just the fundamentalists who studiously ignore all this work.

Far be it from me to disturb your ignorance. Perhaps the "corners of the earth" was apocryphal, there was a story that a pope denied Columbus's theory that the world was round, because Jesus had sent his apostles to the corners of the earth. However there is this;

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you will bring forth children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

This verse has been used for centuries to oppress women, and more to my point, was used by the Catholic Church to oppose use of anesthesia in childbirth, because women were supposed to suffer.

Just from a quick concordance scan, of the 172 uses of the word "pain" in the bible, only two mentions the NT refer to childbirth, whereas, the farther back you go in the OT, the more the word pain refers to childbirth.

Again we see the concept of God evolving over time.

But remain in bliss, for all of me.

thx

How wrong you are on religion being wrong.
Signed,
Open-minded religious person that disagrees with your assumptions.

In your own words, please explain to me the Big Bang.

No inquiry is allowed. The (Darwinian) council has spoken.

Sincerely,
Dr Zaius

bitter bumpkins of evolutionary monopoly clinging to their stagnant Darwinian Bibles, their little flashlights. They have a fear of strange and foreign inquiry and of those who see things differently. I cannot blame them. They are afraid; afraid to even try to see beyond their own crystallized certainties.

Am i amused that science is self correcting and is a process of discovery? Am i amused that religion is a process of denying and obscuring obvious truth in favor of orthodox irrationality?

Sure, but then i am easily amused. I am especially amused that religion has fought against every inquiry into medicine from autopsy to anesthesia to birth control to in vitro fertilization to blood transfusion to surgery itself?

Ha ha. I am doubled up with hilarity.

Ho Ho.

How amusing.

As i said below, it is a waste of time arguing with people who receive their information by revelation, but there have been two items of irony that have always amused me.

In Middle Tennessee, one can observe preachers fulminating against Evolution in churches made of Oldovian Limestone, which is composed of fossil sea creatures, easily visible to the naked eye.

Any open-minded reading of the Christian Bible clearly discloses a God who has Himself evolved, from the bloody-handed and punitive Old Testament JWH to the loving and gentle Jesus, who in turn evolves into the Authoritarian warrior of Paul and St. John.

Most amusing to see the Hebrew God evolve from a tribal deity to a Buddhist pacifist to a Roman Emperor on steroids.

But as i say, a waste of time to argue such matters.

If any open-minded person reads this, permit me to recommend "The Gospel of Thomas" a Gnostic text, easily available on line or in libraries.

when you responded the other day with your puzzling ending statement that was:

"That is my opinion, clearly expressed, and is worth what your opinion is. Nothing."

You very effectively admitted therein that your opinion was worth nothing.

I would have inferred from that that you would have vaporized by now.

Read what i said. WWII was largely between the Atheistic religions of Fascism and Marxism. Most if not all tribes are defined by their tribal gods, or their tribal interpretations of a larger religion.

For example, female genital excision and honor killings of raped females are not sanctioned in the Koran, but various tribes project these customs into the corpus of Sharia law.

It is true that not all wars are religious, i never said that, but i will say that few nations can resist incorporating religion as a sanction for whatever wars they find themselves in. Even Stalin was forced to release some Orthodox priests from Siberia to boost morale in the Red Army.

Read the Old Testament. It reeks of blood, from circumcision to stoning to the Plagues of Egypt to the genocide practiced on the original inhabitants of Canaan to the wars of the Zealots.

Or if that is too much for you, read Mark Twain's "Letters From Earth" for an early and witty deconstruction of "Holy Writ."

Calling something "intellectual snobbery" or "secular humanism" does not, ipso facto, make it wrong.

You're correct that "consensus is not truth" in and of itself. But neither is dissent from consensus. Since most of us aren't scientists, we rely on consensus to provide us with a clue to the truth of things that we would otherwise need postgraduate science studies to understand.

You don't offer us any reasons to disbelieve evolutionary theory, or to persuade us that the scientific consensus is misguided. You offer some namecalling. And that is also not, in and of itself, truth.

"evolution is supported by mountains of tangible, peer-reviewed evidence..." Stein's movie is about freedom to interpret evidence and make up your own mind. The same evidence can support a different conclusion.

"...generations of scientists" This is an example of the bandwagon fallacy. Many believe evolution to be true, it must be true. Consensus is not truth.

Mr sullivan. Your faith in your own reason is called Secular Humanism. It supports a naturalistic/atheistic explanation for all that is (Kurtz.Dawkins). All you are saying in your piece is my religion is better than yours.

It is my carefully considered opinion that religion is the most dangerous force on this planet. Fine upstanding people consider it their duty to do horrible things to other fine people in the name of religion. I could list atrocities, crimes and massacres for the rest of the day and never come close to completing the roster of death and destruction caused by people trying to "save people's souls" by killing their bodies.

And before somebody says "the Nazis and the Communists were worse" i will state that it is my carefully considered opinion that Fascism and Marxism were Christian Heresies.

I don't care to argue. That is my opinion, clearly expressed, and is worth what your opinion is. Nothing.

I do not proclaim, the pope does that, i state my opinion. Many people, the majority of people on Earth, do not recognize the sacredness of the bible or any book.

Please to not put words in my mouth, or set me up as a straw man for your vendettas against reason.

I'm not here to chop logic with anybody, i merely state that it is useless to argue with religious persons, as they are immune to reason and logic. Indeed they boast that faith supercedes logic, science and reason. Fine. No need of us wasting each other's time. My religion is a private matter, i wish other people would keep theirs private too.

But i know they won't, because god talks to them.

I have read it three times in toto, and several more times in part. I have studied scholarly historical books on the bible, and find that it is a vast agglomeration of falsehood, atrocity and some decent poetry.

How ever the worst thing about the bible is the people who claim to have read it, but have not comprehended.

He who has ears, let him hear.

... and science by its very construct is meant to evolve and is hopefully intelligent. Science is a probing tool. It cannot lay claim to being the sole proprietor of the natural world, and somehow marginalize all other spheres into a biased space by labels such as 'super'natural.

Yes, science is science. Science is a quest for truth and knowledge. Today, previously accepted scientific fact is discarded as fast as new scientific facts are proposed.

I, unlike yourself apparently, do not consider this to be a political or a religious issue. I see it as a question held hostage by politics.

I consider that ID does have a legitimate place in in any liberal (in the old sense) education in the spheres of philosophy, critical thinking, and debate. I think that science should welcome such tangential processes as being sources of enrichment and perspective. I feel very strongly that it should not be excluded from curricula as venues of choice.

Have you ever read de Chardin? I have not since a long time ago, but I recall him discussing such topics rather intelligently.

The Aids and Influenza viruses evolve so fast they are proving to change faster than humans can create new defenses against them. I sometimes think people who hate and deny science should refuse modern medicine as a matter of principle. That would nicely demonstrate evolution. But it is futile. An honest man can not win a argument against a person who ignores the evidence of their senses, in favor of some ideal conception of the universe.

It's a hopeless task, no need to bother.

those who want evidence cannot see the forest for the trees.

also: the concept of intelligent design has nothing to do with religion per se.

what if god was a scientist and evolution was found to be part of a design?

would this threaten you?

The idea that people who believe God created the world are blind fools who refuse to see the facts is not true. I am an intelligent human being, and I see all kinds of evidence that people and all creation are not "random" at all. Don't write us off as people who just say "God did it" and have no other basis for our reasoning. Our reasoning begins with God, yours begins with evolution. I read stuff by people I disagree with (evo. scientists) Do you read things by creationists or ID people?

In a bigger forum, we could debate this with facts, but I have neither the space nor the time to debate the facts which will change neither of our minds.

The fossil record does not show a change from one kind of thing to another. It shows adaptation only. The problem is that regardless of your view, both start with the premise and then interpret evidence to support it. I have seen evolutionists and creationists and ID people do this over and over again.

I'm sorry to tell you Macro-evolution is based on fallacies, but it's true. I don't for a second believe you will believe that however, so we will have to agree to disagree.

Even carbon dating has been widely discredited and yet they continue using it and dating things by a flawed system.

Once again - show me one time when something changed from one kind to another. Didn't happen.

Try visiting the creation museum if you want some good evidence. Otherwise, time will tell which is right and I'd rather believe like I do and be wrong than believe like you do and be wrong.

People are quick to decry scientists and intellectuals as "close-minded" because they refuse to acknowledge those who support the theory of Intelligent Design. For those of you who support that theory, where is your evidence to support your position?

Those who believe in evolution have fossil records, DNA evidence, the logicality of random mutation and survival of the fittest, and many other points of evidence to support their claims, but where are yours?

The idea that "Because God did it," is an acceptable answer to any question completely negates the need for evidence. When I was in school, taking a math test, the teacher always required us to show our work so that we could prove that we had a reason for getting our answer. Would anyone accept that 2 + 2 = 5 because God said so? Of course not.

Science is not a matter of developing a theory based on what you believe to be true, it is based on fact. IDists would have us all create a theory and ignore any evidence that contradicts us.

Perhaps I could come up with a theory that we are all simply entities in a computer, like The Matrix, and wouldn't my "theory" be as valid as yours?

I want to address one of the questions above:

"Or are Ben Stein and his allies trying to sneak religion into the schools?"

Why is the intellectual left so afraid of religion in school? I had a discussion in my office last week where I decried the liberal academic professors at our universities as abusing their positions by preaching intolerance of conservative views to our kids.

My coworker countered that they are merely trying to get the kids to think differently and be aware of differing points of view. To question ingrained beliefs and social mores.

The fact is, we need religion in our schools now more than ever! And No, I am not saying only Christian religions, I mean religions of all kinds and faiths. Perhaps then we can get to the point where students can honestly and openly begin to understand different religions and points of view.

Most of our conflicts in the world today are religion-based and maybe, just maybe, understanding and open discussion of different faiths can be a good thing. but instead, the liberal academics want only their view expressed and none other.

Why sneak religion into schools...I want to openly and honestly promote religion in schools...but the academic mafia in this country would cry and babble incoherently and complain that we ignorant peons simply can't understand.

I'm proud to be ignorant if it means that I believe in Yes, I'll say it, God! He is the creator, the way, the truth, and the life.

I find it so amazing that "Scientists" have closed off the possiblility of God yet yell at the other side for having closed minds. If there is overwhelming evidence, I'd love to see it because I've not seen it so far. Those who promote micro evolution (not macro or adapting)have become an ilitist group that holds themselves as smarter than anyone who would dare believe anything else. Joel's favorite shows that. So, if you're so smart: show me the money. I'm not ignorant about this subject at all before you assume otherwise, and I'll tell you when I will believe I "evolved" from a monkey -- when you show me something, anything with conclusive proof that it changed from one KIND to another KIND. Things adapt to their environment, causing changes in species within a kind, but they are always what they started out to be. A moth may change color, but it is still a moth. ... Ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of truth... Don't sputter and spit and put the other side down as anti-intellectual -- put your money where your mouth is and prove it.

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