Three Points Define a Plane
Posted 16 weeks 5 days ago byThanks to Barak Obama, we are all allowed to speak of race in America, but the conversation is crippled before it is opened. The problem is that a Black/white dialogue is incomplete, there is a third player in the room, and it is the proverbial 800 pound gorilla. Of course I speak of the Spanish-Americans, now the largest minority group in this country. In fact, if one was to accept reality, and subdivide the so-called “white people” into their component ethnic groups, the Spanish-Americans might well be the single largest bloc in this patchwork nation.It is common to say that “diversity is dead” that we are all one great McNation, but that generalization will not bear scrutiny. Even among the whites, the gap that John Edwards spoke of between rich and poor is large and growing larger. The Catholic, Mainstream Protestant and Fundamentalist religions also divide the pale of skin in to frequently antagonistic groups, as does the Liberal/Conservative schism, which has led to major groups of whites that cannot and will not talk to each other in any meaningful way. I use the old fashioned term Spanish American for several reasons. First, there are families that are descended from Spanish speakers who were on their own land since well before 1776. All the southern tier of states were Spanish at one time, from Florida to California, as you can tell by the names. A second group are or are descended from legal immigrants dating back a century or so. When my Ukrainian grandparents came to America, the rules were simple; you had to be white, and you had to be healthy. The situation along the Rio Grande, was more fluid, with people moving back and forth across the border at will until a very few years ago. Then, of course there is a smaller, but very large group, the illegal immigrants. But they are Spanish, and they are from America, which, you might remember, extends all the way to Tierra del Fuego. Spanish Americans. All of a sudden, in historical terms, they are demonized, blamed for all the ills of the US, and are the subjects of every rabble rouser with a soapox to stand on or a radio show to bloviate over. Some people seem to think we have to kill them all and pile the bodies on the border to keep the rest out. You can even read that there is a giant plot to reconquer Azatlan for la raza.Which has about as much chance of happening as Marcus Garvey coming back to life and leading the African Americans back to Africa. I don’t want to get into the he said/she said, but I just want to say that without including the Spanish Americans in the conversation, nothing can be done. The African Americans are afraid of losing their hard fought political gains, and the poor whites are in no mood for yet another competitor for their jobs and livelihoods. However, I see positive signs. A duality, a two valued system, black and white, say, can easily be read as right and wrong, good and evil, win or lose. The fact that these dualities have little relation to reality is often overlooked. A three valued system can be more stable, using the metaphor of the three-legged stool. Some Spanish Americans are darker of skin than some African Americans. Some are lighter than many whites. So what color line can be enforced then?Some Spanish Americans could sneer at the newly arrived families that came over on the Mayflower either as cargo or as passengers. What of your blue blood then?And so on right down the racial/ethnic line.This is important, and we must get serious about this. I read today that the largest tomato grower in Pennsylvania had decided to stop planting tomatoes this year. He can’t get help. He plants over two million tomato plants a year, and if he can’t harvest the fruit, he loses a lot of money. So he did the math, and quit. So the American market loses tens of millions of tomatoes this year. That exact scenario is going to play out time after time, until people come to their senses, and stop all this hysteria. Or not. Your choice.














Thoughts
Re: IGNORE!!!
Submitted on June 11th, 2008 by AnonymousUmm, Bill Richardson?
Quod erat demonstrandum, b---h! :-D
Hmm...
Submitted on June 11th, 2008 by AnonymousIt occurs to me that, if you want to divide "white" people into Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Russian Americans, French Americans, English Americans, etc..., it really wouldn't be fair to treat Mexican Americans the same as Cuban Americans, or Dominican Americans, or Argentinian Americans, or...
THE RIGHT TO A SOVERIGN NATION
Submitted on April 28th, 2008 by Anonymousmost Americans have no problem with illegal immigrants of Hispanic decent as a people, however it is the byproduct of their immigration that troubles us, they are polluting national parks all along the borders. that resonates in their actions once here, i go fishing all the time and i observe them polluting while fishing and removing fish from lakes that they are supposed to be releasing, maybe they feel this is not their country so who cares, maybe that's why they believe they do not have to learn English and we should adapt to them. THIS COUNTRY IS NO LONGER A MELTING POT. Asian, middle eastern, Haitian, Italian, Irish, German, Israelis, LITHUANIAN, and French people all learn or try to learn English so they can better operate in the USA, they do not expect us to learn their language why then should we have to speak Spanish for them? i understand that the corporate world is making out like bandits by hiring them over Americans, but does that mean that if we ignore the problem it will correct itself. we as taxpaying citizens are footing the bill for their emergency health-care we are footing the bill for them when they break the law, and when after repeated offenses they actually do get deported they just sneak back in through our porous borders is that fair? do our children deserve having to foot the bill for them? i would like our immigration system to be more streamlined but also to be more fair. do Mexicans and south Americans have more of a right to come into this country because they are closer? WE AS AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE SECURE BORDERS, if nothing else but to prevent terrorism or should they be let in too?..... WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO A SOVERIGN NATION WITHOUT INTRUSION BY ANY FORIEGN NATIONAL WITHOUT ACCEPTANCE BY OUR GOVERNMENT......-a taxpaying American citizen
Sociologically interesting.
Submitted on March 27th, 2008 by wishnevskySociologically interesting. And i hope leading to greater civility in the long run, where a three cornered state, like Switzerland, will be subject to less dispute than a duality like Belgium.. Just for example. Perhaps Rwanda would be a better, or worse example.
With three power blocs any two that can compromise can hold power, but they have to compromise. Iraq, where one (minority) ethnic group oppressed two others, is an example of it not working. But n Iraq is an artificially created state, in a period of maximum stress.
As you point out, other groups exist in the US, in practice they would have to ally with one of the Big Three to get a larger voice.
But i don't see assimilation working, no matter the propaganda; African Americans have a vested interest, it seems, in remaining identifiable, if not isolated.
Fascinating, if you don't get caught in the gears.
Gestalt
Submitted on March 26th, 2008 by dotsI had to google gestalt. Thanks for helping me grow as a person.
"the most interesting part of the whole gestalt is the the huge blind spot progressives have toward Hispanics."
I've lived in Florida and Texas, so my own viewpoint may be a bit skewed. Progressives have done a lot of work for the Hispanic community in these areas.
But I know what you are saying. I believe the language barrier creates unnecessary divisions. I actually saw more anti-hispanic sentiment - because I knew white flighters from areas of Miami - than anti-black sentiment growing up in the South (Yes I know, Florida is a little too South to be South, but still).
Who knows how it will play out in the next few years? Unfortunately, the Hispanic community is a catalyst for current immigration issues, and it follows that anti-amnesty is equated to anti-Hispanic.
a) whatever they are called,
Submitted on March 26th, 2008 by wishnevskya) whatever they are called, Americans of Hispanic descent residing in the United States are vastly under-represented, ignored by most of the media, and are likely to be vital in American politics from now on.
b) i do not see or hear vast amounts of "Hispanic Anger," from the Hispanics i interact with. The reasons are many and subtle, but the bottom line is nobody pays them to express their anger.
c) i was trying to make a point, which was missed. OK Hispanic. A rose by any other name.
d)One important factor that strikes me about the Hispanic, as opposed to the African American cultures, is that the Hispanic Culture is not in the process of being redefined every generation.
e) The stool metaphor was one of stability, not total inclusiveness.
f) i do not speak for any culture, race or power group, including my own. I try for the perspective of an historian. Although not an academic i do have a few publishing credits
g) the most interesting part of the whole gestalt is the the huge blind spot progressives have toward Hispanics. For example NPR, has one little show about Latinos, while there are several with an African American perspective. I make no value judgements, i just find that interesting.
h) it seems sometimes that the only commentators that notice Hispanics see them as a menace. I hear most of the same slurs used about illegal Mexicans now as were used in the recent past about African Americans, Catholic Southern Europeans, and even the Irish.
i) All the other repressive movements, the Klan, the Know Nothings, the Nativists, all failed. So the historical prediction is....?
Belabouring a nonsensical point, but thats what I do
Submitted on March 26th, 2008 by dotsSure Hispanic is a coined term, as is Latin American and Latino. As is white. "Spanish American" you are coining yourself. I have to tell you, though, it could be easily confused with people who are, you know, from Spain. Which excludes Bill Richardson.
And sure Bill Richardson ran for a while. But this whole exploration of Black Anger is happening because Obama is a front runner, and, at this point a likely contender for the national election. If Bill Richardson had made it this far, the whole conversation would be different. If Joe Lieberman had made it this far, there'd be another conversation all together. Kennedy was the Democratic nominee before his "catholic" speech.
I agree with the intent behind your post, but a good starting place would be involving a couple of premises:
1) Don't generate fresh new generalizations for people
2) Be aware that the stool has more than 3 legs
You mean like my next door
Submitted on March 25th, 2008 by wishnevskyYou mean like my next door neighbors? They like to be called Mexicans. From Vera Cruz. Where Cortez landed, you know.
And a Spanish American ran for president this year, did you miss that?
It's not what i call them, i call them by their names, if i know them, but i was discussing ethnic groups. Hispanic is a coined term, in English, not in Spanish. La Raza is more correct for Mexicans with some Indio blood, but is a loaded term, not used politely by an outsider. Latin American is a little better, but is a made up term used to include the Brazilians, who speak Portuguese.
IGNORE!!!
Submitted on March 24th, 2008 by dotsI say ignore the "Spanish Americans" until one of them runs for president.
That's the American way.
And I'll leave it to you to try and use that term on actual people with Hispanic heritage if you know any. Let me know how that works out for you.