No Immunity for Telecoms
Posted 45 weeks 4 days ago bySen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., who sits on the Select Committee on Intelligence, said the administration's case for immunity is thin. Members of the intelligence and judiciary committees have been permitted to see a set of the classified documents that lay out the administration's legal opinions on immunity and its information requests to companies.
"I have read the documents and senators who haven't read them would be shocked to see how flimsy the case is on which the administration bases its case for immunity," said Wyden, who is prevented from discussing the details of the documents because they are classified. "As far as I can tell, these documents are being kept secret to protect the president's political security, not national security."
- FOX News
The telecoms argue that they didn't know they had the right to refuse to hand over personal data. That they didn't have leverage against a big ol' gummint coming to them demanding it. Yet one of the smallest of them, Qwest, refused. Told those gummint guys to get a court order. Never heard from 'em again.
I'm not categorically against the government getting access intelligence related data, only that there need to be controls. If the White House can run roughshod over private businesses who are lilylivered and choose to be run over and then are protected from the results of those actions, we might as well chuck the first amendment and any right to privacy.
I forgot. Republicans don't believe in the right to privacy (the legal basis for Roe v. Wade).














Thoughts
from one of the few paranoid people
Submitted on February 29th, 2008 by mxyzptlkBlu, please release your CAPS LOCK, stop yelling and repeating yourself. It's just annoying and I would like to enjoy our dialog.
Couple of points:
1. Don't know why you keep referring to socialism when I'm speaking of rights guaranteed by the Constitution, a document written long before there was a socialist movement of consequence.
2. You evidently haven't read the history of the 30s, 40s and 50s to understand what government can do when it overreaches in the cause of protecting America. My father was a postal worker who was involved in leftest politics years earlier in his youth. He was never a danger to his country and by the 40s was not politically active. Yet the FBI investigated him, interviewed his neighbors and co-workers (I know this only because of an FOIA response that still had sections redacted nearly 60 years later). Kinda chilling? My father-in-law was a well known actor who knew a lot of leftists and some communists, but was never one. He refused to tell HUAC who he knew socially and was blacklisted. His career was killed for decades.
Of course, there's a balance between protecting our liberties and protecting our lives. But the desire to lift all limits of what government can do assures it will overreach and damage our liberties. Aren't our liberties what America is all about?
P.S. - I'm one of those rare Democrats who points the finger at Clinton as well as Bush for not taking the Al Quaeda threat seriously enough.
follow the yellow brick road.....beep beep beep
Submitted on February 29th, 2008 by BLUTHE TERRORIST CAN SUE AMERICA FOR INVASION OF PRIVACY...
THE TERRORIST CAN SUE AMERICA FOR
INVASION OF PRIVACY...
WHERE IS SANDY BERGER WHEN YOU NEED HIM!
When the RIGHTS, demanded by
Submitted on February 29th, 2008 by BluWhen the RIGHTS, demanded by a few paranoid people, (unless duly warranted) to PRIVACY, are being held higher than the moral issue of safety for the American people, it's time to talk straight.
We, as the majority, have the RIGHT to use "common sense" and defer from the LEGAL ABUSE of our system by criminals. America is being brainwashed into thinking we are a "failed nation" and something or someone HAS to take care of us.
Socialism (liberalism)is the belief that government should pay for your groceries, home, insurance, school care...sound familiar? We are there.
Let Americans claim COMMON SENSE again. Most Americans cling to the fact that this nation is still very young and wealthy beyond imagine.
But there is a political machine in play, to give the terrorist and criminals comfort, and is the same political machine that believes in Socialism.
Will it be a few liberal politicans that decide the TERRORIST have rights over our own safety?
What good is FREE INSURANCE...if we get gassed or bombed?
And where will the DEMOCRATIC finger be pointing if it happens? BUSH DID IT!
Actually, they don't need immunity
Submitted on February 28th, 2008 by mxyzptlkLet's say it was the New York police asking them for records without a warrant. Guess what the phone company would say: "Get a warrant."
They chose (with one exception) not to say that to the federal government.
President Bush is correct: There are safeguards in place. It's called the FISA law. They can get a warrant. Heck, they can start surveillance in an emergency and get the warrant up to 3 days later.
What neither the federal or any government agency can or should be able to do is get such records without any oversight, just because they say they need it.
I don't want to get off track re Roe, but the Supreme Court didn't decide on it based on morality; they did decide based on the constitutional right to privacy. The challenge is that laws relating to morality only work if the vast majority of the citizenry agrees on the moral principle. If half the people in the country didn't think stealing was immoral, we might have a problem passing laws against it. So since you believe in the right to privacy, either you disagree with the Court's interpretation of the constitution, or you accept unhappily that the result is in conflict with your moral beliefs, and I respect your view either way.
Yes No Yes
Submitted on February 28th, 2008 by ansuyoYes, these companies need immunity if they are going to comply. No they should not be held liable for what the government does. AND Yes, there should be safeguards put in place. President Bush says there are safeguards already in place.
One of my biggest pet peeves with regard to the quote is people who make statements like that when they "aren't allowed" to back them up. That's unethical and divisive. If only we could find a "neutral source" to look it over.
I don't see why they can't do this on a temporary basis while they have time to look things over and come up with a better plan.
By the way, I do believe in the right to privacy and the moral issue about Roe v Wade lies in a person's right to terminate another life. I know you won't agree, but I had to say it.
Have a great day:-)
There's no question
Submitted on February 25th, 2008 by mxyzptlkThere's no question what happened, oldgoat >
Every telecom in the country, save one, handed over customer records without warrants.
Qwest did not.
Those who believe this shouldn't matter and that all the telecoms wanted to do was protect Americans and that the government would never ask for anything it didn't really need should ask why the current law isn't adequate? After all, thousands upon thousands of requests have been approved and only a handful denied -- ever. There was an issue of the FISA court being slow in making judgments. That appears to have been addressed and it should never be allowed to happen again. Except, that even under the existing FISA law, the government can act first in some circumstances and get approval later. It's simply this: The Bush administration wants no limits on its power. Civil liberties matter not to them. They are willing to throw out much of what's great about America to protect America.
telecoms
Submitted on February 25th, 2008 by oldgoatI would rather the gov go through a justify telling a telecom to do something instead of the telecom just taking the gov word or pressure to do it.
If a little company can stand up and say show me the warrant to justify it then why didn't the rest. I kind of thought the idea of warrants was to protect a company from doing what was requested of them. I think that before granting immunity the records should be gone through to find out was done and if it was justified. Kind of late to go back after immunity and you find out that they did things that should have been obvious that were over the line.