Why is religion allowed to be such a heavy influence in a free and democratic nation?
Posted 28 weeks 3 days ago byI am perplexed. Why, in this day and time, would americans allow religious thoughts and convictions to enter in to politics and the governing of this culterally diverse nation? Isn't it true our founding fathers came to this country in order to escape religious persecution and design a bill of rights allowing every citizen the right to decide for themselves what "higher power" if any, they would like to support? It was not their only reason, of course, but certainly high on their list.
I realize Karl Rove tapped in to that market when trying to get Bush re-elected and it worked. I know the republican party wants those votes. But, in reality, what has the christian coaltion acheived by voting republican? Roe vs. Wade is not going to get overturned. Family values? Come on..why in the world do we need to have the government involved with family values and basic morality? Why do they gravitate to a party that is not concerned with global warming? It seems so contradictory to core beliefs of any christian. Why would they continue to support a portion of the party that created a war using extremly flimsy, basically untruthful reasons? Since when have the conservative republicans ever cared about the middle and less than middle class? Aren't christians concerned with helping the underpriviledged and needy - the helpless and the sick?
Someone help me. I think John McCain is a decent, truthful man who does reach across the aisle to help orchestrate responsible legislature for the american people. I am not voting for him, but if I was a republican, there would be no question. Why is their a rather large faction of the political pundits and a large amount of american citizens who feel Huckabee is the better person? In my opinion, if I was a republican, I would be absolutely thankful that McCain decided to take on the republican machine and run again.
















Thoughts
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???
Submitted on April 29th, 2008 by AnonymousWhere do you get off on saying that? Historically there hasn't ever been an Atheist based nation that i am aware of? You sir/mam are spreading hypocrisy!
Hitler as hand of god
Submitted on April 29th, 2008 by AnonymousYes it was.
Hitler may or may not have been a "practicing" Catholic, but he subscribed to the Church's long-standing anti-Jewish teachings.
"Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." -- from "Mein Kampf"
As I understand it, the Pope at the time pretty much looked the other way while Hitler's regime killed so many Jews. -Jeff Miller
Ron Paul
Submitted on April 29th, 2008 by AnonymousRon Paul is running for republican nomination in 2008, also. look into what he stands for and you might change your republican choice for office.
"just remember karl marx"
Submitted on April 29th, 2008 by Anonymous.... and he had such a good batting average with his other predictions, then, didn't he?
The founding and Christianity
Submitted on April 28th, 2008 by BenIt's almost an oversimplification to say that the U.S. wasn't founded on Christian values. America is not a Christian nation, but rather a nation made up predominantly of Christians. The distinction is important. As a result, the United States was and remains far more amenable to Judeo-Christian values than just about any other country on earth.
The US was not founded on
Submitted on April 28th, 2008 by AnonymousThe US was not founded on Christian values. In fact, many of the founding fathers were Unitarians.
You really have no concept
Submitted on April 27th, 2008 by AnonymousYou really have no concept of US history, do you?
Pretty Interesting..
Submitted on March 17th, 2008 by AnonymousPretty Interesting.. Constitution does not mention anywhere seperation of Church and State.
It all comes to down to is that people will vote for those who have the same ideas as they do, or almost the same. And when someone is of the same faith.. that tends to sway a person because they think that their ideas will be similar!
http://www.gotquestions.org/separation-c...
Free and Democratic Nation?
Submitted on March 12th, 2008 by AnonymousAt what point did our great republic become a democratic nation? The real problem, as I see it, is that more and more people believe this is a democracy.
You used the wrong form of
Submitted on March 10th, 2008 by AnonymousYou used the wrong form of "there".
catholicism
Submitted on March 9th, 2008 by AnonymousI don't think anyone was saying that the Holocaust happened because of Catholicism, I think they were just countering the claims by others that
Hitler was an atheist.
During the Crusades, however, thousands of Jews and Muslims were murdered by blood-thirsty hoards sent from Europe to the Middle-East by the Catholic church.
Certainly in modern history most mass-killings were political, economic or ethnic in design, but historically religion has been the driving force behind mass-killings and genocide (from the slaughtering of Native Americans to the Crusades and the campaign to spread the word of Mohamed... whom actually spared the Jews in the middle-East due to Islam's basis in both Judaism and Christianity).
Born a Catholic, maybe, but not a practicing Catholic
Submitted on March 9th, 2008 by AnonymousI'm not sure where you get your facts from, but attempting to destroy all the Jews from the face of the Earth is not a Catholic practice.
My answer to your question
Submitted on March 7th, 2008 by Anonymousfear.
Um, I hate to say it (no i don't) but you are wrong.
Submitted on March 6th, 2008 by AnonymousTo start "in god we trust" was not put on coins by the founding fathers. The motto was placed on two cent pieces (yup, they stopped making those around 1873) during the civil war (meaning there were only coins with "In god we trust" for less then a decade until the 1950's). The in the 1950's the motto re-appeared on a variety of coins. So, no the founding fathers had nothing to do with "In god we trust"
When you say "Or entire constitituion was built on their belief in God," I will assume you meant that Our constitution (you should learn about spell check, 'tis awesome...btw) was built on that belief. However, I greatly disagree. For example, "Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity"(Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)(Thats a citation...btw). This quote belongs to Benjamin Franklin, and I will assume you know that he is a founding father of the United States of America.
Perhaps you are under the impression Benjamin Franklin was a man whore of an evil scientist, in that case how about some word from the good old Thomas Jefferson "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth" (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.).
Not good enough for you? I suggest you do a little research or seek a formal education so you can avoid making arrogant comments that suggest you are ignorant of your own history.
well...
Submitted on March 5th, 2008 by Anonymousone thing hits me strange is the fact that maybe we want to know who is the weakest link. such as all the candidates saying they are christian even if they arnt, saying they are smart enough to know that if they say they arnt they might loose the vote from people who are. but it can work both ways. like huckabee stated that he doesent belive in evolution, that to me makes me want to not vote for him because even though i belive in god, i still think religion is the way he did it. so maybe its just a long standing tradition of saying that you are even if your not but not being over religious for the plain fact of keeping the vote
You're wrong on multiple
Submitted on February 28th, 2008 by AnonymousYou're wrong on multiple counts. One, it was the Church of England that they were trying to escape, not the Roman Catholic Church. Two, the amendment is worded as follows:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."
That first line alone states that there was basis for this so called "Christian" nation. According to the Constitution, Christians are only equal to every other religion, or lack there of.
Not to mention that the Freemason founding fathers were mostly Deists. You can find quotes regarding their views on religion in the United States all over the web, but as always, make sure to use a reputable site.
"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did."
- Ben Franklin,letter to his father, 1738
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst." - Thomas Paine
"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."
-Spoken by Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis
No name-calling
Submitted on February 27th, 2008 by JoelHi there: I just unpublished a comment that was full of name-calling. We have no problem with disagreements, but name-calling won't be allowed around here.
Thanks for helping us create a better atmosphere around here.
Joel
Our Founding Fathers were
Submitted on February 27th, 2008 by AnonymousOur Founding Fathers were Christians. They left to get away from the roman catholic church, not religion. Or entire constitituion was built on their belief in God. The Ammendment doesn't say "Freedom of religion" it says "Freedom to worship God in your own way" so in a sense, you could almost say that people who do not believe in God are agaisnt our constitution, not saying they are, but its sumthin to think about when your talking about this subject. Their belief in God was also why they put "In God we trust" on our coins.
So I think alot of people are looking for relion in politics because our country was built on people who believed in God!
just remenber
Submitted on February 26th, 2008 by AnonymousWhen the commander-in-chief says "Baaaa", so do the rest of the sheep.
Americans would rather wallow in the affairs of movie stars and sports figures that waste their time actually thinking!
Bias
Submitted on February 23rd, 2008 by AnonymousFirst, you might consider voting for who you think has the most ideal platform and not base it on the bipartisan party, see synecdoche. Secondly, your argument is flawed in the respect that this country might not of been founded with original religious constrictions, but it was founded on the basis of religion. As religion is where most of society pulls their moral dispositions from.
Name-calling
Submitted on February 19th, 2008 by JoelWe're not big on that around here. Assuming we're all adults here, I think we can all make our cases without bandying about phrases like "pinheaded religious nuts" -- no matter how fervently you believe them. Please make your case, but dial back the name-calling a bit, please?
Thanks,
Joel
Why is religion allowed to be such a heavy influence...
Submitted on February 19th, 2008 by MarkIt is very simple. The Christians don't care about global warming because jesus is coming back soon and will fix everything. These pinheaded religious nuts don't care about anything that doesn't concern itself with mythical beings, or the return of some nut job christ. They're idiots. Religion is a form of metal illness and it is up to the rational peoples of this planet to put an end to this absurdity that we call religion. If we don't rid the world of religion, religion will rid the world of us.
I would also like to add
Submitted on February 18th, 2008 by AnonymousI would also like to add that Hitler was a Catholic, not an atheist. Fundamentalists like to spread rumors that he was an atheist, but that is not so.
Crusades and Atrocities
Submitted on February 18th, 2008 by AnonymousHere's a Christian Crusade gem, from the First Crusade - that feelgood hit that started the whole franchise.
Sounds worse than Saddam huh? These were Christians fighting in the name of god.
Christians have never killed in the name of God?
Submitted on February 18th, 2008 by AnonymousPreposterous.
Lookup the Crusades in Wikipedia:
The SIXTH Crusade was the first to launch without the blessings of the Pope. So that means the first FIVE Crusades were 100% Christan God Approved - because that's who the Pope takes orders from right.
Saying that Christianity has always been a non-violent organized religion is bunk.
Generally incorrect
Submitted on February 18th, 2008 by AnonymousLabeling Christians as being a religion that murders "in the name of God" is, first of all, placing Christians into an unearned stereotype. "Christians" who murder in "the name of God" are usually mentally unstable people (as most murderers are) who joined cults that really don't reflect the values of the Christian religion. There is always the occasional group of wack-jobs that bomb abortion clinics and shoot pro-choice doctors. Nevertheless, they are still a minority amoung the overwhelming number of murders done in the name of avarice, jealousy, drugs, etc.
Hitler, an athiest, killed millions of Christians and Jews alike. That was certainly not in the name of God.
Religious vs. atheistic governments
Submitted on February 18th, 2008 by JoelYou're all right. And you're all wrong.
Governments that try to cleanse society of religion are bad -- they have killed many people throughout history, and are to be disdained.
Governments that try to enforce a particular religious viewpoint are bad -- they have killed many people throughout history, and are to be disdained.
Rather than play an endless game of genocide comparison, perhaps what we can do is recognize that governments have no business interfering -- for or against -- in such matters of conscience.
The Founders' genius was to say that the government can't take sides: The First Amendment says government can't establish a religion, but it can't prohibit the free exercise of it, either. Beyond being the law of the land, it is uncommonly wise.
Of course we will
Submitted on February 18th, 2008 by AnonymousHypothetically, if people who are religious base their moral values, livelyhood, and choices with the beleifs of their affiliated religion, then why shouldn't they let their religious values affect their political decisions? To most people, religion is the foundation of their beleifs and structure of their life. If religion is the basis of someone's life, then of course there're going to make political decisions that reflect the choices they make in their day-to-day life. Aren't the decisions we make in politics voicing our beleifs and moral values?
Although it might seem like a hopeless case to try to overturn the Roe vs. Wade movement, that doesn't mean that we should stop fighting. It's just a matter of time before technology reveals to us enough proof that an unborn baby is alive as much as we are.
In addition, the reasoning behind the Roe vs. Wade movement is frightening. This could be applied to many more situations; and could possibly evolve into the reduction of basic human rights.
Religion kills more than Atheism
Submitted on February 18th, 2008 by AnonymousChristians and Muslims alike have killed millions over time in the name of god. I would argue "In the name of God" has resulted in more deaths than any Atheistic government.\
Because...atheism is dumb?
Submitted on February 18th, 2008 by NicBecause...atheism is dumb? And because without God, nations have executed over 200 MILLION men, women and children. Atheistic governments are a joke. That's why.
Why is religion?
Submitted on February 18th, 2008 by AnonymousOur law is based in large part on english constitutional law, which was heavily influenced by judeo-christian traditions and values.
Probably the single most important concept of this morality/philosophy is the dignity and value of the individual human life. A large part of the modern conservative coalition is the pro-life movement, as the pro-life philosophy flows from the aforementioned judeo-christian values.
When a solid majority of republicans and conservatives continue to oppose abortion, they are doing the right thing, both morally and legally, as well as scientifically.
All law seems to be based on someone's morality. Hence, when modern liberals legislate against smoking, or for animal rights, or to protect the environment, they are doing so based on their values, or their own sense of morality. The question is not whether morality is going to play a part in the public square, but whose morality.
Also, to quickly address another part of the question, one example of christian conservatives helping the middle class is in voting to keep taxes lower. When families have more of their own money to spend, it helps the economy at large, and also (at least theoretically) allows for more charitable contributions that help the poor. Liberals will of course argue that the president's tax cuts only helped the rich, but my middle-class family has greatly benefitted economically in the last few years from the president's tax policies, as I'm sure millions of others have.
err... not quite
Submitted on February 18th, 2008 by Anonymousthe Pilgrims of the Mayflower and other Puritan New England settlers came here to have freedom from English religion and set up a Protestant theocracy as they saw fit (these are the same people who carried out the Salem Witch Trials and banned Christmas celebrations, because of their strict brand of Protestantism). Some English Protestants went to France and the Netherlands to practice their religion but saw their children losing English identity and culture, thus requested the English monarchy grant them land in the New World for themselves and went to what is now known as New England. Rhode Island was founded by religious outcasts Roger Williams first, then Anne Hutchinson. Maryland was supposed to be a haven for Roman Catholics but got overrun by Protestant settlers; Pennsylvania and a southwestern portion of New Jersey was supposed to be a colony for Quakers. The people in the South, those that founded the Virginia Colony and the Southern colonies were looking for riches, to get out of debtor's jail, to start a new life or other economic advancement and freedom. So, yeah, a good portion of the colonies were founded for religious reasons. However, our "Founding Fathers", the leaders of the American Revolution and the first leaders of the newly organized united states of America (I didn't capitalize in "united states" on purpose) saw that religion mixed in with affairs of state would be a disaster waiting to be unleashed as it was in England and countless times in the colonies, so purposefully and deliberately left it out of government. So, no, this country was not founded as a Christian or any other faith-based nation.
Founding Fathers
Submitted on February 17th, 2008 by Atheist"Isn't it true our founding fathers came to this country in order to escape religious persecution"
Common misconception. Anyone who's ever taken a high school US history class should be able to tell you that between half and 2/3s of the Pilgrims on the Mayflower alone were people looking for economic advancement, not an escape from persecution. They went looking for gold, not God.
Besides, religion plays a part in politics because it affects peoples decisions. Their religious base will ALWAYS sway their decisions- asking them to make their choices separate from religion is like asking them to remove the factor on which they base their morality and life decisions. Is it right? No. Will it ever stop? No.
wait just a second...
Submitted on February 16th, 2008 by tjthe government NOT involved with family values and basic morality? while there is no state funded or backed religion or set of core values, I'd say it's patently false that the government "is NOT involved with family values, and especially not basic morality". for one thing take a look at our tax code, inheritance and property laws, etc. that rewards the married family unit over all other types of families; then there are the same sex laws, sodomy laws and adultery laws, certain states explicit prohibitions against certain sex acts, prostitution laws; all of which look to me like family values oriented legal code. the government absolutely regulates basic morality: laws against murder (including human euthanasia or assisted suicide), lying (perjury), stealing, cheating, laws against certain kinds of personal drug use (marijuana, for example); all of which appear to be legal codes regulating basic morality. i'm not saying it's all bad or good, but understand that the government does legislate and regulate family values and basic morality, and, it does so to the extent that we, the people, allow it to do so.
btw, while there is no state backed religion, our government does prefer religion over "no religion" as evidenced by the tax-exempt status of religious organizations. i don't think (someone correct me on this if i'm mistaken) organized atheist groups can claim tax-exempt status in a similar manner.
** Our Constitution was not
Submitted on February 14th, 2008 by bipolar2** Our Constitution was not heaven-sent to a "xian nation" **
You'd do better to read Mr. Madison, who actually penned the original founding document. You might start with the Federalist Papers.
>> The Constitution is the foundation document for the U.S.
There's no natural law. Neither God nor religion plays any role. There are no "law givers." Laws do not get made on Sinai. They do not get "handed down."
The Constitution contains no reference to any god. The word 'God' does not appear. ('Jesus', 'Christ', 'Christianity' don't appear either.) The word 'religion' appears only once, in Amendment One.
The first amendment protects "freedom of conscience." Initially the rights of a well-to-do white man (not slave, not female, not propertyless) to freely choose how to conduct his life as a legal person.
One Civil War (1865), the vote for women (1920), one Civil Rights Movement (1965) -- that's the turbulent blood-soaked price paid so far for extending equality (reciprocity).
>> Amendment One also establishes freedom *from* religion.
The U.S is a secular state from its inception. The U.S. is *not* one nation under any god, power, force or immaterial being.
It (she or he or some committee) doesn't rule here. The people do. Not child molesting priests, not fanatical tax-dodging televangelists, nor cabals of delusional fundies seeking to overthrow the Republic.
God-talk disappears from justificatory language of 1776 (in the Declaration of Independence) and gives way to a view of 1786 (in the Constitution) that the people give themselves their own dignity and rights as citizens.
They enjoy or abuse their 'freedom of conscience' in matters of religion, speech, publications, public assembly, petitions to the elected representatives of the people, civil disobedience, and even armed revolution. Is this order on the edge of chaos? Yes.
Some conjectured divinity (or divinized leader) no longer needs to exist as a "holy lie" a la Plato for people to act in ways consonant with social order. The people are sovereign; we abide by the laws which we create for ourselves.
>> Let's be clear here: The people are sovereign.
Christ is not sovereign . . . God is not . . . they do not exist. They are illusions no more real than Zeus, Sherlock Holmes, or Batman. And, theology is third rate fan fiction. As one wag puts it, "Theology is a subject without an object."
There are many who pretend to speak for metaphysical nonentities, demanding social control and political domination. They should be seen for the lying frauds that they are.
They are christo-fascists, threats to our secular Republic greater than all islamo-fascists combined.
bipolar2
c. 2008
on Marx...
Submitted on February 14th, 2008 by Anonymous@anonymous...
no he didn't, Marx saw religion as the 'opiate of the people'; to him religion was a tool for oppressing people and their way of dealing with that oppression. Eliminate religion and people will realise they are being exploited and rise up. he thought that in his communist utopia religion would wither and die because it was unecessary. he never claimed religion was necessary for freedom.
God and the Americans
Submitted on February 11th, 2008 by BenThere are thousands of books on the subject, so we can take this discussion in several dozen different directions. I would say, briefly, that America's founders understood that a grounding in religion buttresses freedom, rather than undermines it. Not just any religion, but religion that comports with republican (small-r) principles. Thomas West of the University of Dallas (and a former colleague of mine at the Claremont Institute) expounds on the idea better than I could here, here, and here.
I'd also refer you to George Washington's farewell address, in which he says:
That doesn't mean Washington believed it was necessary to have government-supported religion. And Washington himself wasn't particularly religious. But he and most of the other founders understood the vital role that religion plays in civic life. It really isn't more insidious than that.
God and the Japanese
Submitted on February 11th, 2008 by TruthTellerThe Japanese do not base their laws on any form of supreme being. Do they have less freedom than the citizens of Iran - where the law is clearly based around God's law?
Family Values and Government
Submitted on February 11th, 2008 by AnonymousDots,
If government doesn't regulate family values, then what are the laws that govern same sex marriage for? How about teaching abstinence vs. safe sex practices? What about sodomy laws?
Clearly the government wants to regulate your personal life at some level. To say otherwise is embracing denial.
Yeah, well
Submitted on February 10th, 2008 by dotsIt's a good thing nobody said anything about eliminating religion.
jkerr, the government is NOT involved with family values, and especially not basic morality. PR consultants only use these ideas to seduce the unwashed masses because the tactic is successful in getting their guys elected.
Oh, the hypocrisy.
Just remember what Karl Marx
Submitted on February 10th, 2008 by AnonymousJust remember what Karl Marx said in the Communist Manifesto, if you want to eliminate freedom, eliminate god and religion.